The Lounge Q+A: Barbara Rodgers, Nutrition Consultant

Hi Barbara, I’d love to start with your personal story. When I first heard about you, it was from one of our colleagues who is one of your biggest fans. And he said, “Chinwe, Barbara is from our world. She’s from a large company that’s helping small businesses. Then she had a life changing experience and did a 180. She reinvented herself. Now she’s in a totally different place.” I’d love to hear your story.

Well, thank you for that. I actually was originally from Chicago and was in the securities industry and kind of worked my way up. I did a lot of different things. I started out as an equity trader in Chicago selling mutual funds, and ended up working for different bank broker dealers as a sales and trading manager. But over time, I ended up also in the area of technology and working for securities clearing firms and as senior vice president and national sales manager for a big clearing firm out of Philadelphia. But also in those periods of time, I set up a new company for a super rich, old bank in the Midwest, set up a new broker dealer and hired salespeople and worked across multiple states. So, I did a lot of different things. The technology world was probably most appealing to me, certainly the most lucrative, really exciting, longer-term sale, but I love the securities industry and the dynamics and excitement of it.

I was actually working for a big technology company out of New York, when they decided to go through a corporate reorganization, and I lost my job, which was startling and difficult. Then while I’m kind of getting my thoughts together and deciding which direction I want to go into, I was putting some planning into it because I’d spent 30 years in the securities’ industry. And a few months later I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. So, it was pretty devastating. I was experiencing a lot of symptoms that we don’t have to go into right now, but it’s all over the map with people with MS. After struggling and going to a lot of different doctors over a period of three to four years, I had a major MS attack. It was serious. I went to a doctor who I was seeing at the time and I didn’t even realize MS could do what was happening to me and he said, “No, you’re having an MS attack.” I went home and I thought, you know what? I’ve got to do something because traditional medicine isn’t helping me.

So I talked to a lot of friends and relatives and ended up with a holistic nutritionist who had written and published a book about helping people with MS and other autoimmune conditions, but through nutrition. After about a three and a half year long intense program, I didn’t have symptoms anymore. I haven’t ever since then, that was a number of years ago.

What?

Yeah. I was so fascinated at how this nutritional program eliminated an incurable disease, that I went back to school and got certified in holistic nutrition. I decided I’m going to try to work with people that have autoimmune conditions like MS and also chronic stress. So, I’ve since published a book on holistic nutrition for infertility and conception, and also got involved in our national organization, the NANP, at which I’m now president of the board of directors. So, I’ve gone in a couple other different directions that are kind of suited to my personality and my goals, but that’s my story.

Barbara, that’s no small story. It’s like you’re on your third act. You have had such a full life in the financial services’ industry, tech, and now with nutrition, health and wellness with a really personal story. I have a few follow-up questions for you because this is something that personally interests me. Also, I know there is broad interest this topic within PocketSuite’s Health & Wellness community as well. I don’t hear these kinds of stories enough, where someone went down an alternative health and wellness path and just completely beat the disease. Why doesn’t every healthcare billboard showcase these stories? Why isn’t there complete transparency about this type of treatment for folks who either have a genetic disposition as well as folks who are on this journey now and may be going down a traditional path that is not working for them? Why isn’t this treatment the first piece of information people are getting about what they can do to get well?

That is an excellent point and a very good question. That’s a little bit about my story, it is not for everyone. I was one of the people, in the beginning before I went down that road with holistic nutrition, that would say, “Yeah, you might want a homeopath.” They were saying, “You might want to look at your diet.” I went to my neurologist and I said, “People are kind of suggesting maybe I look at dietary interactions.” He said, “Well, you can do that, but that’s not going to help you.” Traditional medicine doesn’t buy into this approach and a lot of people don’t. I did find it difficult to believe, even on my own in the beginning. How could eating some potato chips during the day or a hostess cupcake affect my neurological system or my immune system?

It’s actually bigger than that. You can’t just eliminate one thing. You’re trying to change your internal biochemistry and that doesn’t happen overnight, and it takes a lot of work. You didn’t just get MS overnight, it was a building process over months and even years.

Right.

So a lot of people, if they believe this can happen and that you can change yourself through nutrition, they don’t believe how long it might take, or they might not. You’d have to have a pretty strong belief system, which affects the outcome of a lot of things. But I think that’s why, there’s just not enough solid evidence out there according to many. What my point of view is, “Look, you’ve tried other things and you are where you are today. What do you have to lose?”

What do you think it’s going to take to ensure that some of these treatments cross over as mainstream solutions that are taught in medical schools? Not just in naturopathic / homeopathic programs.

True. I think more and more voices out there are talking about it. The industry is growing. I look at holistic nutrition as an industry, and while we don’t see growth necessarily on a day-to-day basis, it’s almost like watching a plant grow. You don’t see anything if you stare at it all day long, but the next day there might be a bloom on it or a leaf or something. That’s kind of what’s happening with us. We’re making a lot of inroads, legislatively and state-to-state. That’s part of what we’re doing through the NANP. More and more practitioners, even people coming from traditional medicine, are starting to see that the health of the gastrointestinal system and the immune system are absolutely pivotal in the expression of wellness or disease in the human body.

Amazing.

You’re right, you can read about that more. Even the National Institute of Health has a whole division now set up on alternative and complementary modalities. So, I’m really excited to see that we’re starting to gain steam and some acceptance. As that happens more and more, I think more people will come around. It’s just going to take time and not everybody will come around, this isn’t an approach for everybody, quite frankly.

So can you share a little bit…you talk about it as an industry and we’re particularly interested in the part of that industry that includes independent professionals who are out there spreading the good word, providing these treatments, supporting people through programs that ultimately change their lives. Can you share a bit about the profile of people who are committing their lives to providing nutrition and wellness services? We look at fitness and it’s kind of just an expected thing now. Personal training, everyone knows, “Oh, I have a personal trainer. I had a personal trainer. I’m going to get one.” And everyone is now accounting for fitness in their lives. What do you think it’s going to take for the same thing to happen around nutrition?

I think it’s, as I started to say, even before, it’s more and more voices joining the choir, so to speak. And joining this, it’s almost like a movement where we are trying to help support people’s health by what they’re putting in their mouth. I really think that’s probably the biggest ammunition that we have in the industry. There’s also an organization that has been growing, I think since the early mid 1990s, the Institute of Functional Medicine, which is helping to educate licensed medical professions, and the foundational approach they’re taking. And this is, I believe, a three-year program, even for a licensed medical doctor to go through IFMs programs. But the foundational element is nutrition, and what’s going on in the body. And let’s go to nutrition first and lifestyle choices and environmental things going on before prescribing medications. That organization is now in 92 countries.

Wow.

Last I checked. So it is coming along. It is gaining steam.

What is the profile of someone who is an independent nutritional service provider?

Right now we are seeing people who have stories, not unlike mine. Actually, they have gone through their own health challenge, or a close family member or friend. And they found themselves that a holistic approach to dealing with that issue was the solution for many people. Like me, so many people are just astounded at finding out that this is a possibility that they decide to become educated in it. That’s a big part of what we’re seeing at NANP, is people who have that kind of experience in their background. Beyond that, I would say it is people who just have a fundamental belief. Maybe it’s been going on, even since childhood, that they wanted to eat healthy, or they wanted to be healthy, or they wanted to grow their own vegetables or herbs, or they just thought, “I’m going to avoid sugar. Cause I don’t like how my body feels.” They’re in tune with their body. I certainly wasn’t in tune with what my body was telling me in the corporate world. So, that’s actually another big component that we see. Right now, our industry is largely comprised of women. We do keep statistics at NANP and I’m sure that’s changing as well, but they are educated generally, at least going through high school and even some college, and then deciding to go into a post educational environment, into holistic nutrition.

When we were promoting this conversation, our community got really excited to hear from you. The category of folks outside of traditional health and wellness that were most excited to hear from you were fitness professionals. More and more of them are taking on the role of providing nutritional guidance, providing healthy menus and so forth to their clients, but don’t necessarily have the formal training. Do you have any advice or feedback for fitness professionals who’d like to add nutritional services to their offerings or would like to get educated and improve their knowledge in this area?

Certainly. I would say to look for the best programs. Actually on our website, NANP.org. You don’t necessarily have to be a member, I don’t think, to get this information, but you can see a list of approved schools or educational programs. We go through quite a vetting process for these programs. They have to meet a certain standard of education in order for us to approve them. So, that might be a good place for them to start because they can be more assured that they’re going to get a very broad and in-depth look at holistic nutrition and how it affects the human body. Personal trainers are ideally suited for this industry just because they come in contact with so many people.

Right. So what’s your aspiration? What are the big rocks that you’re trying to move right now in the industry and how can our community help?

Boy, another great question. I would say the biggest thing that we are doing is working on expanding and changing state laws. As hard as it is to believe in this day and age, there are laws in various states around the country that prohibit our practitioners from doing what they want to do and working with clients. And the dietitians who are licensed through government agencies, work with medical professionals, work in hospitals and often schools, they are working to keep the laws written so that they can work, but we don’t have the freedom to work. And really, in this day and age, we want people to have a choice. They can choose to go the way of a more traditional dietetic approach through nutrition or in holistic nutrition, which is a little bit of a different philosophy and approach. We have our standards of education, our scope of practice. We have ethics that we adhere to.

We do have a lobbyist team that works in different states. So, once the legislators in different states come around to understanding what we’re attempting to do in the industry and how we’re attempting to help people and meeting with people one-on-one. That is probably the biggest hurdle that we have – going from state-to-state. As these laws come up for renewal, we get in there and work with all of the people who are involved, including the dietetics association, and try to change the laws so that we can practice in that state.

You know, I had no idea that there is a difference in nutritional counseling approaches in the industry. Dietetic versus holistic nutrition. Please send some of that information over to us so we can share it with our community and be ready in our states to advocate.

So let’s talk a little bit about independent nutritional professionals. Can you share how someone goes about running their business, getting clients, and getting paid? What’s a typical nutritional professional business? And what does the client interaction look like?

That is a very difficult question to answer because it’s all over the place. And it really depends. Within holistic nutrition, our professionals are doing a huge variety of different things. Their focus is very different. As I mentioned, I work with people who have autoimmune conditions and chronic stress.

Some people will work with individuals who are recovering from cancer or going into cancer treatment. There’s other people who work on weight loss or other types of disease prone individuals, or somebody that’s dealing with migraines a lot and how they could help them. There are other practitioners that do work in a municipality and are working to promote healthy eating in different communities within that municipality. So, it’s really all over the place.  For me, a protocol is quite lengthy because I’m dealing with people who have a chronic disease, and trying to support their body while they’re healing from that disease. In other cases, it might be much shorter than that. So that’s a much more difficult question to answer.

It sounds like it’s very customized and sort of goal-oriented. You’re customizing it around the goals and needs of that client, which sounds a bit like therapists in some ways who do that in a big way.

And that’s a very good analogy because first and foremost, what somebody is doing is listening to what that client needs and listening to what they need to accomplish and how to help them be healthy.

What do you say to those who have hired a nutritional professional and at some point, just decide, “Gosh, if I actually had the money to hire my own chef, I would be in great shape because they would be cooking great food that I would have no problem eating. But when I have to make the choice between getting some of these other priorities done and grabbing something quick to eat that may not be the healthiest, I typically choose wrong.” How much of this is just lack of resources and time? Really, it’s not even knowledge, right? It’s just like, “Gosh, I end up taking the shortcuts because there’s only so many hours in the day.”

And we all do that. And it’s really changing habits and mindset. I’ll tell you what, it’s hard. If you just try and change any habit that you have, including the one that you just laid out so beautifully, it’s really, really difficult. So, what we try and encourage people to do is just get in the habit instead of grabbing that bag of chips or Fritos or whatever, to grab some raw vegetables, or grab something that is at least gluten-free and eat less of it. Instead of filling up on a whole bag of chips like I used to do, or grabbing the Oreo cookies. Who doesn’t love Oreo cookies? I don’t touch them anymore. So it’s really, it’s a lot of mind over matter that we have to work with people on.

As we think about the industry and where we’re going as a country, as a global society. What do you think are some of the most exciting trends that will make behavior change a little bit easier for us? One off the top off-the-bat is the huge set of food tech companies that are creating vegan, gluten-free, really yummy foods that you can kind of grab and go. It doesn’t feel like it’s a trade off. Now, you’re going to disappoint me and tell me, well, those aren’t healthy either, and then I’m going to cry, but I’m hoping there are a few trends that make this habit change thing easier.

What is coming? That’s tough too. You’re right, a lot of these specialized diets aren’t necessarily the healthiest. What we look at in holistic nutrition is what we call bio-individuality. We look at each individual and what’s going on with their overall health and their body and what nutrient deficiencies might exist in that person, to help determine, maybe somebody can be vegan for a while. Maybe. I know there’s a lot more of a philosophical approach that goes into being vegan or being vegetarian, but from a health standpoint, how can we supplement some of these specialized diets based on the bio-individuality and needs of the person?

So, what’s coming? What I’m hoping is coming is that people will start to adopt more of the approach that I just described, where instead of looking at a specialized program, they’re looking at overall, what do I need to do to get healthy? Sometimes it’s not just adding vitamin B12. Sometimes, it’s not just eating a little bit more protein. It’s more all-encompassing than that. In my private practice, everything starts with the health of the GI tract and first testing an individual and finding out what imbalances occur. So, I’m hoping by people just becoming more knowledgeable, more educated, holistic nutrition professionals being out there working with individuals, they’ll start to come around to an overall approach instead of a more narrow myopic approach.

That’s awesome. So, one suggestion I have…I’m legendary for making suggestions, kind of business model suggestions to Pros, because I just love this idea of growing businesses. We have a huge community, thousands of fitness professionals around the country. I wonder if we could organize some sort of scholarship program where they could each do a consultation with somebody who’s certified by the NANP. The double benefit of that would be they get that holistic assessment to get a sense of what things they could do better, but then they get an eye towards somebody they can put in front of their clients to do a consultation and potentially develop a relationship as well. It’s a companion or complementary relationship to the fitness training and other kinds of health and wellness support they’re providing. So, if you’re open or interested in that, let’s talk offline, but I’m very excited about the potential.

I love it!

Expanding people’s knowledge about what they can do here.

I love it. I love that idea. And we actually are looking at a couple of other suggestions for scholarships. We do have a scholarship program right now for individuals who want to attend our annual conference, as an example. So we are looking at things like that. I would love to talk more with you about that and even see a written proposal on it.

We’d be open to providing a scholarship or sponsorship to get something like that off the ground.

Okay, we’re going to move into the lightning round. So, this is where we learn a little bit more about you, what you love. So we can  follow you and cheer you on as you continue to take this industry by storm. First thing is, what are you currently streaming on…Netflix? Hulu? Amazon? What’s your favorite show?

Oh, right now it’s Mad Men.

Oh, I love it. I love Mad Men. Are you rewatching or are you watching it for the first time?

First time.

You’re in for a treat. Love it. Okay. What’s your favorite place to vacation?

Oh, well, up until three years ago, I’d say Naples, Florida, but I live here now. So…

Oh, you do? So you took it all the way. I love it. That’s an inspiration.

I did, yes. So my favorite vacation place right now, I would have to say is probably up in this Southern tip area of Michigan. New Buffalo, Michigan.

At a certain time of year?

Oh yeah, it’s got to be summer because my blood’s thinner now. I can’t handle the cold weather.

Okay. Words to live by or favorite quote?

Oh, words to live by or favorite quote. I can’t think of the exact quote, but it has to do with people reaching their goals and being who they are in the process.

It’s all about the journey. And then finally, where can we follow you? How do we cheer you on? What’s the next big thing that we can get excited about that you’re working on or that we will be able to celebrate?

Oh, well, I’m actually working on going through a series of educational programs, myself with an educational organization called Restorative Wellness Solutions and I’m working on my next module with them. And that will be on blood chemistry. I just went through education and gastrointestinal healing, and optimizing adrenals and hormones, and so the next one is blood chemistry. So, I’m excited about that. But beyond that, I can be found on the NANP website and go to “who we are” and look at board of directors. I’m in there and my website is in there.

And where do we buy your book?

On Amazon, it’s called Baby Maker by Barbara Rodgers. I would appreciate it.

It’s obviously geared to people in their childbearing years, but it goes through if you’re having issues with infertility, how to improve upon your infertility issues and improve conception. And it goes through pregnancy and even some suggestions for nutrition and post-pregnancy.

I wish I had talked to you about five years ago …we were just beginning that journey.

Yeah, well, it’s good. A lot of people are even buying it and giving it as gifts for younger people that are having children. But it’s not too late for you either.

I’m on it. Barbara, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us live. We’ve got a bunch of folks who have joined. I’m excited to talk to you offline about potentially a scholarship program. We can get our fitness folks and our nutrition folks together.

Absolutely, thank you! I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you.